Panendeism.org

For the Promotion of Reason Based Spirituality...
 
HomeGalleryFAQSearchRegisterMemberlistUsergroupsLog in

Share | 
 

 A Brief Moment In Time

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Pattpatt



Number of posts : 2
Registration date : 2009-02-04

PostSubject: A Brief Moment In Time   Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:20 am

I have been reading about Stephen Hawking on some atheist sites. And it really got me thinking about how he found that the universe has a large probability of existing without God Neutral

Especially this one:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/quentin_smith/hawking.html

As a new deist, I really don't have much experience with these sort of things :S And I guess maybe that's why I'm easily worried with stuff like that. So I wanted to ask experienced deists about what they think of this. Neutral

And sorry if this is in the wrong segment.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Aaron
Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 1919
Age : 46
Location: : Connecticut
Registration date : 2007-01-24

PostSubject: Re: A Brief Moment In Time   Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:04 am

A lot of these discussions about the existence of god depend on how one defines the word "god". If by "god" one means a big grandfatherly sky-daddy then the argument you posted may or may not make sense.

But if by "god" one means "existence in general" then such discussions about the existence of an objective being become meaningless because existence itself becomes proof of god's existence.

But even from a more classical deist perspective the idea of an ever existing universe doesn't disprove the notion of a "prime-mover". Such a prime-mover could exist outside of time and outside of material existence and therefore the concept of an ever existing universe and a prime-mover wouldn't be incompatible. (Even if it does sound a little confusing.)

In any case. The field of theoretical cosmology that Hawking is touching on is almost as faith based as any god belief. It is highly speculative in nature and there is limited proof to back it up.

I hope that helped a little. Perhaps someone else here will be able to add another perspective.

Welcome to the forum. Smile

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich" ~ Warren Zevon
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://panendeism.web.officelive.com/default.aspx
Uriah

avatar

Number of posts : 536
Age : 44
Location: : Tucson, AZ
Registration date : 2007-10-11

PostSubject: Re: A Brief Moment In Time   Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:06 am

I'd say Hawking is arguing against the old conceptualization of God - God the Prime Mover, the Clockmaker.

Atheism, in general, is simply a reaction to Christian totalitarianism.

God is not something that can be defined, discovered, or even really debated via the scientific method - God is a metaphysical concept, better left to the realms of philosophy and poetry.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Gnomon
Moderator


Number of posts : 660
Location: : Birmingham, Alabama
Registration date : 2007-09-30

PostSubject: Re: A Brief Moment In Time   Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:04 pm

For what it's worth, Hawking's "Wave Function" theory can be interpreted in a manner compatible with the Panendeist concept of G*d. Here's an entry from a glossary addendum to one of my essays on a related topic : Intelligent Evolution (IE).


THE GOD FUNCTION

Steven Hawking et al founded a new scientific discipline called Quantum Cosmology (QC). Hawking simply took the basic concepts of Quantum Theory (describing the infinitesimally small fundamental constituents of the universe) and pushed them to their ultimate logical conclusion at the other end of the Cosmic scale. ~ When a sub-atomic particle is about to decay into a different kind of particle, the theory says that the actual particle is "transfigured" into a "purgatory" of Quantum Superposition, where all potential future states are equally possible, and an arbitrary "choice" must be made before the transformation is completed. According to QC the same phenomenon could apply to the universe as a whole. ~ The “Wave Function” of a quantum wave/particle is a mathematical expression for the set of all potential states of that particle. Therefore, the wave function of the whole universe is the set of all possible states of the Cosmos. ~ Some Quantum Cosmologists have interpreted this incalculable expression as a multitude of coexisting universes, or an infinity of parallel universes, or an eternal regress of bubble universes. But the IE interpretation of the Cosmic Wave Function is simply that everything-that-could-possibly-exist (the meta-universe or Omniverse) exists all at once—in superposition, to use a quantum term. And some traditional terms for that timeless, limitless, all-encompassing state of affairs are “Eternity”, or “Infinity”, or “Deity”. So I will just take the next step and refer to the Wave Function of the Universe as “God”. The uncreated “Creator” of IE is everything that ever was, and will be—including this Creation. ~ The “God Function” is a metaphorical expression for the set of all past and future, actual and potential states of Being.


Last edited by Gnomon on Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.enformationism.info/
Gnomon
Moderator


Number of posts : 660
Location: : Birmingham, Alabama
Registration date : 2007-09-30

PostSubject: Re: A Brief Moment In Time   Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:17 pm

Quote :
God is not something that can be defined, discovered, or even really debated via the scientific method - God is a metaphysical concept, better left to the realms of philosophy and poetry.

That is a true statement. However, as a former, science-oriented Agnostic, I won't waste my time philosophizing or poetizing about a putative deity who is incompatible with the scientific method, as a source of knowledge about the physical Creation of a metaphysical Creator. We have been discussing that very concept in this same forum. For example :


http://panendeism.userboard.net/science-nature-and-sustainable-living-f6/progressive-evolution-t424.htm

http://panendeism.userboard.net/science-nature-and-sustainable-living-f6/human-oriented-evolution-t473.htm

http://panendeism.userboard.net/deism-f4/non-theistic-deism-explained-t470.htm
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.enformationism.info/
Pattpatt



Number of posts : 2
Registration date : 2009-02-04

PostSubject: Re: A Brief Moment In Time   Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:20 pm

Thank you for the reply everyone. I guess as a new Deist, and coming from a Christian family I still have a lot of the theistic concept of God in me. Neutral
I see I have a lot of re-evaluating to do. But that's what so great about being a Deist. Figuring it out on my own. Smile
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Aaron
Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 1919
Age : 46
Location: : Connecticut
Registration date : 2007-01-24

PostSubject: Re: A Brief Moment In Time   Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:53 pm

Indeed. Smile

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich" ~ Warren Zevon
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://panendeism.web.officelive.com/default.aspx
Uriah

avatar

Number of posts : 536
Age : 44
Location: : Tucson, AZ
Registration date : 2007-10-11

PostSubject: Re: A Brief Moment In Time   Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:06 pm

Pattpatt wrote:
Thank you for the reply everyone. I guess as a new Deist, and coming from a Christian family I still have a lot of the theistic concept of God in me. Neutral
I see I have a lot of re-evaluating to do. But that's what so great about being a Deist. Figuring it out on my own. Smile

Personally, that is what I like about Deism and Panendeism: I don't have to accept anybody else's definition of what God is.

I feel God should be a personal relationship, and as such no two people's will be truly the same.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Helium



Number of posts : 540
Age : 57
Location: : Toronto
Registration date : 2007-09-14

PostSubject: Re: A Brief Moment In Time   Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:02 am

Quote :
Perhaps someone else here will be able to add another perspective.

No way, I seldom win any arguments around here as it is, I'm not taking on Hawking. lol! Cheers!
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Gnomon
Moderator


Number of posts : 660
Location: : Birmingham, Alabama
Registration date : 2007-09-30

PostSubject: Re: A Brief Moment In Time   Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:58 pm

Quote :
For what it's worth, Hawking's "Wave Function" theory can be interpreted in a manner compatible with the Panendeist concept of G*d.

We need to keep in mind, though, that speculative scientific theories can be adjusted and adapted to fit a wide range of preconceived notions. Last night I saw a scientist on the John Ankerberg show*, who used a perpendicular-time Cosmological concept, similar to that in the Everything Forever book, to illustrate how God can exist as three beings, among other otherwise paradoxical beliefs. Quantum Theory has made paradox somewhat respectable again in scientific circles.

* Ankerberg is a Christian TV evangelist, whose specialty is confronting Atheists with rational evidence to support the Bible, and the existence of God. His rational-faith God-concept seems to be of the Intelligent Design, Discovery Institute variety, which is not so far removed from the Deist understanding, except for the necessity to conform to Biblical teachings.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.enformationism.info/
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: A Brief Moment In Time   

Back to top Go down
 
A Brief Moment In Time
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» A Brave New Iraq - a Moment in Time with Mais Abousy
» WOW MOMENT - Maybe saved my daugher's life............
» good morning america time to rise and shine
» my ex husband getting divorced for the 2nd time....
» Vomitting and pooing at the same time

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Panendeism.org :: General Discussions :: Science, Nature and Sustainable Living-
Jump to: