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 Non-theistic Deism Explained

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Aaron
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PostSubject: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:09 pm

Stretmediq asked me to post the following document for him. Perhaps he can give it a proper intro.

http://panendeism.org/Documents/Non-theistic%20Deism%20Explained.pdf

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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:16 pm

Thanks Aaron. I just get asked all the time to explain my ideas about Deism. But I guess some people have some trouble visualizing it so I decided to add some illustrations in the hopes that might help.
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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:59 am

I thought it was interesting. Good job!
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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:09 pm

These are a few of my random thoughts and comments on the topical essay. Obviously I was reminded of some similar concepts in my theory of Informationism.
---Gnomon

Non-theistic Deism Explained
by
Alumno deVerum
[student of truth]

<< we cannot experience nothingness >>

<< Likewise what we call "nothingness" is not an
empty void "without property" but is actually a neutral concept (which is something)
permitting us to now define it as "equilibrium". >>

<< But potential is a property >>



LIke the number ZERO, the concept of Nothingness is a valid logical set, but it is an empty set. Moreover, since we cannot experience it, Nothingness is not a property of Reality, but of Ideality. ZERO has ideal mental properties, but no real material properties.

Pure Equilibrium has zero properties, but vast potential. A physical analog is the hypothesis that what we call Empty Space is actually seething with potential Quantum energy. Like a flashlight battery, as long as the positive and negative energy is in equilibrium, there is 1.5 volts of potential energy, but zero actual electricity flow.



<< By themselves the most basic waveforms (sine waves) have no meaning but
merged with others they can create radically different patterns >>

<< they are mathematics- manifest >>

<< However all the evidence we have says that for a concept to exist there must be a
mind to consider it. >>

<< waves are just the probability distribution of a possible event. Probability, in
turn, is mathematical in nature and mathematics itself is nothing more than the rules that
govern numbers which are concepts. >>



In the Shannon theory of Information, Meaning is a sensible distinction between a blank, featureless background (or a flat baseline) and a foreground of a Sinewave (or other meaningful patterns) superimposed on the Zero line. In my own theory of Informationism, the process of adding "form" to "non-form" is called the In-Form-Ation [verb] of fhe apparent nothingness of the baseline.

Waveforms are graphs of activity. All activity, including energy and life and mind, takes the form of vibrations, which are oscilliations between positive and negative [real and potential, manifest and un-manifest]. A good example is the oscilloscope beside the bed of a dying patient. As long as the scope shows wave-forms, the patient is alive. But when the scope "flatlines" the patient is dead, as indicated by the cessation of brain activity.

So when the waveforms reach a zero-point of equilibrium, the only thing left is Potential, or in mathematical terms - Probability. And as the quote above asserts, Probability is a concept which can only exist in a Mind of some kind. Therefore, when the brain dies, the information [meaning, life, mind] that was formerly patterned on the baseline, presumably returns to the "eternal pool of potential" from whence it came.



<< But if the world is basically concept and concepts must be observed what is
observing this thing we persist in calling "nothingness" (but which is better defined as the
"concept of equilibrium") from which the world emerges? >>

<< self referential or self observing. >>

<< I call this foundational state the Prime Observer because It is literally observing
Itself. >>

<< awareness is the basis of all reality. >>

<< So by this model "God" could be thought of as an ocean unbounded by any shore and the world is a wave moving through It. >>



One consequence of this kind of informational analysis* is the conclusion that the Real World is actually a manifestation of the Ideal Word that exists only in a Mind composed, not of matter or energy, but of the infinite Potential that includes the various forms of Reality as we know it.

But, to paraphrase the first quote above about Nothingness, "we cannot experience G*d". So all we can expect to do is to imagine G*d, by forming imaginary images in our Minds. We "experience" divinity only as a concept in a manner similar to the way we make practical use of the unreal concept of Zero. Yet, we can experience the Creation or Emanation of the Prime Observer by becoming consciously aware of the mundane World, which consists fundamentally of information waves passing through the Abyss of Potential that is the MInd of G*d. Hence, you could say that the Prime Observer references He-rself through the eyes and minds of He-r own creation. And thus, the Eternal Cycle persists to infinity.


The Eternal Cycle is a basic wave-form turned back upon itself.



http://images-partners.google.com/images?q=tbn:Pt6IqXkabBGifM:http://www.electronics-for-beginners.com/pictures/AC_sine_wave.PNG

http://images-partners.google.com/images?q=tbn:Pt6IqXkabBGifM:http://www.electronics-for-beginners.com/pictures/AC_sine_wave.PNG " border="0" alt="" />

PS---Sorry, I couldn't find any good illustrations on Google Image Search, so these will have to do, until I have time to draw some of my own.

* Informational Analysis breaks complex concepts down into the basic elements of Knowledge, Meaning and Information such as Logic, Mathematics, and In-Form-Action.
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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:50 pm

Gnomon wrote:
One consequence of this kind of informational analysis* is the conclusion that the Real World is actually a manifestation of the Ideal Word that exists only in a Mind composed, not of matter or energy, but of the infinite Potential that includes the various forms of Reality as we know it.
Kind of sounds like Plato's theory of forms doesn't it? study
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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:54 am

Gnomon wrote:
One consequence of this kind of informational analysis* is the conclusion that the Real World is actually a manifestation of the Ideal Word that exists only in a Mind composed, not of matter or energy, but of the infinite Potential that includes the various forms of Reality as we know it.

God = Infinite Potential

or

"God is the possibility of possibility..." Rabbi Marc Gafni

afro

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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:42 pm

stretmediq wrote:

Kind of sounds like Plato's theory of forms doesn't it? study

Until recently I had taken Plato's Forms as nothing more than a convenient philosophical metaphor. But as I learned about the scientific definition of information, I finally made the connection between transcendent Forms and mundane information. The theory of Informationism covers the whole range from Ideal metaphorical patterns to Real physical shapes.
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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:37 am

Personally I think there just may be something to it.
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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:48 pm

<< they are mathematics- manifest >>


Another article in SKEPTIC Magazine* reminded me of this discussion of Nothingness = Something. According to some physicists and mathematicians, the physical universe is not only "mathematics manifest" but a universal quantum computer---meaning it can calculate anything computable.

A few years ago Stephen Wolfram published a huge book, A NEW KIND OF SCIENCE, which concluded from experiments with geometric computer models called "cellular automatons" that such superficially-simple rule-based processes are able to simulate the labyrinthine calculating functions of actual supercomputers without using the typical physical memory and logic processes. Instead, they exploit the mathematical mysteries of chaos and complexity.

This concept is essentially an extension and elaboration of the hypothetical Turing Machine proposed in the 1930s by Alan Turing as a thought experiment. The TM was actually not a physical machine at all, but an abstract symbol-manipulating system equivalent to the human mind, as distinguished from the brain. [my interpretation]

Wolfram made the bold assertion that "any computational system, whose behavior is not obviously simple, is a universal computer". That statement is known as "weak NKS" (New Kind of Science). But he went even further to generalize to the Principle of Computational Equivalence, implying that any complex system, physical or metaphysical, can serve as a computer that can run virtual simulations of real-world processes. In other words, the abstract "computational universe" is indistinguishable in its output from the actual universe. And that's because any aspect of reality can be abstracted and symbolized by the 1s and 0s of digital computing.

I won't go any further into this abstruse topic, which is way above my pay grade. But I do want to point-out the similarities between A> the scientific concept of a universal quantum computer running a fine-grained simulation of Evolution, and B> the philosophical premise that our physical universe is ultimately a one-to-one "simulation" program running in the Mind of G*d. By one-to-one, I mean what-you-see-is what-you-get---G*d's abstract calculation is our physical reality. This doesn't prove anything; it's just something to THINK about.


* SKEPTIC, vol 14, no 3, 2008. Whatever Happened to Stephen Wolfram?
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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:20 pm

Another reason to believe Deism is the "religion" of the future. Think
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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:14 am

Here's a very abbreviated version:

The argument basically says this; the world is fundamentally mathematical not material. And it is not a "creation" but an epiphenomenon. That's it.

The only property "nothingness" has is it is a concept. Using the principle of equivalence this is represented by a straight line because it also only has one property- length.



There are an infinite number of waveforms that exist in potential in such a line.



Now if things happen simply because they can happen and they can happen because they don't result in contradiction then as long as the probability of an event does not equal zero (which is what happens when two identical but opposite waves try to emerge at the same time and cancel out) they may occur for no reason other than the fact there is nothing to prevent them from occurring. Therefore any of these waveforms may emerge spontaneously by themselves or in combination by simple addition.

By themselves the most basic waveforms (sine waves) have no meaning but, utilizing a technique developed by the French mathematician Jean Baptiste Fourier, we can see that merged with others they can create radically different patterns which not only match the same patterns we see in our world they also permit the emergence of an infinite number of other universes each with different physics. So it predicts a "multiverse". Ours just happens to be one conducive to life eliminating the need for a designer.



But if, as the evidence suggests, the world is basically concept and concepts must be observed what was observing it before intelligent life evolved? This "problem" is really no problem at all. Lines may curve in many ways. One is a circle. Bending a line in on itself makes it self referential or self observing.



But a self observing concept is aware of itself. Which means, since all being is derived from it, awareness is the basis of all reality. And that points directly to a Deistic God.


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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:57 am

I hope you don't mind that embedded the images for you stret.

I pretty much agree with your analogy however I view manifest existence as an emanation of "nothingness" rather than an epiphenomenon.

Perhaps my brand of Deism is even more atheistic than yours... or perhaps it's just more agnostic. Think Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:30 pm

Wow! Thanks! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:28 pm

Quote :
The argument basically says this; the world is fundamentally mathematical not material. And it is not a "creation" but an epiphenomenon. That's it.

The only property "nothingness" has is it is a concept.
I have just begun reading a new book : EVERYTHING FOREVER, Learning to See Timelessness, by Gevin Giorban. It proposes many Cosmological arguments similar to your Nothingness concept, and to my Informationism hypothesis. For example:

"Zero is timelessness"
"Zero is the native state of existence"
"Zero is a powerful kind of order"
"What zero is not, is nonexistence"
"Zero is the default state of reality"


I snuck a peek at the back of the book where he discusses how God fits into this emerging understanding of how the universe works. It sounds very much like the necessary deity of Panendeism.

When I finish the book in a few weeks---I'm a slow reader, with several going at one time---I may need someone familiar with the book to discuss these cutting-edge notions with. If you are interested in the job, here's the web site: http://everythingforever.com/

PS---The web page also says, "Soon to be a Movie and Documentary film". If I find the book too far over my head, I may have to wait for the movie version. Smile

PPS---I just discovered that the author committed suicide in 2008. He passed control of his book and web page to another person with a blog called Imagining the Tenth Dimension. I don't know how this will impact the movie deal, but it certainly adds an external element of intrigue to the book.

PPPS---From the blog:
If Everything is Forever, where is Gevin now? Life is full of mysteries. As Max Planck said: “Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.” Regardless of where you think Gevin is right now, he, like all of us, is part of the information that becomes our reality--a pattern within timelessness--and that will always be true.
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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:34 am

Gnomon wrote:
Quote :
The argument basically says this; the world is fundamentally mathematical not material. And it is not a "creation" but an epiphenomenon. That's it.

The only property "nothingness" has is it is a concept.
I have just begun reading a new book : EVERYTHING FOREVER, Learning to See Timelessness, by Gevin Giorban. It proposes many Cosmological arguments similar to your Nothingness concept, and to my Informationism hypothesis. For example:

"Zero is timelessness"
"Zero is the native state of existence"
"Zero is a powerful kind of order"
"What zero is not, is nonexistence"
"Zero is the default state of reality"


I snuck a peek at the back of the book where he discusses how God fits into this emerging understanding of how the universe works. It sounds very much like the necessary deity of Panendeism...

Looks interesting.

It struck me that one could easily replace the word zero for the Tao and it would look like this...
"The Tao is timelessness"
"The Tao is the native state of existence"
"The Tao is a powerful kind of order"
"What the Tao is not, is nonexistence"
"The Tao is the default state of reality"


Now compare it to chapter 25 of the Tao Te Ching...
25
There was something formless and perfect
before the universe was born.
It is serene. Empty.
Solitary. Unchanging.
Infinite. Eternally present.
It is the mother of the universe.
For lack of a better name,
I call it the Tao.

It flows through all things,
inside and outside, and returns
to the origin of all things.

The Tao is great.
The universe is great.
Earth is great.
Man is great.
These are the four great powers.

Man follows the earth.
Earth follows the universe.
The universe follows the Tao.
The Tao follows only itself.


Or you could use the words "the unmanifest".
"The unmanifest is timelessness"
"The unmanifest is the native state of existence"
"The unmanifest is a powerful kind of order"
"What the unmanifest is not, is nonexistence"
"The unmanifest is the default state of reality"

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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:00 pm

Halfway comments on Everything Forever :

By defining two kinds of Order, the book illustrates why the "Nothingness" concept is difficult for most of us to grasp.

Nothingness is total symmetry, like a white-out snow storm : no contrast, no diversity, no individuals---just sameness in all directions, as far as the mind can see.

Humans are so attuned to Grouping Order, with recognizable clumps of "things" that we fail to see Symmetry Order, where "all things" merge into a homogenized whole.


The physical universe began as the ultimate example of Grouping order---every potential "thing" compressed into the original Singularity. But now the universe is evolving in the direction of ultimate Symmetry order---everything spread-out equally into one final undifferentiated Whole. Both the Singularity and the Whole are "all things in one". In the beginning all is potential, in the end all is entropy, but it's always the same stuff : Information.
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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:14 pm

Bernard Haisch explored some of these concepts in his book, 'The God Theory'. He calls it "Zero Point Energy".

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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:13 pm

Here's another mid-term report on the book, EVERYTHING FOREVER.

I'm still somewhere in the middle of reading the book, but I am about ready to crown the author as the Einstein of the 21st century. His new way of looking at the universe may turn-out to be as radical as the theory of Relativity, or the quantum concept of light. I won't give away the key ah-ha insight I just read. But I will say that I now see the history and future of the universe with both eyes open. You won't get the implication of that analogy until you read chapter 13, but it's a graphic pun on the overall shape of the universe.

Here's a few brain-bogging quotes that may give some idea just how far-out he's going with this theory :

<< . . . we are very near to zero presently, and with so much empty space in the universe, we have to expect that the final destination of time is already shaping our present. . . . Zero [in the future] is influencing the present universe in ways that increase balance.>> ????

<< It is incorrect to say the universe is moving from order to disorder, because there is another kind of order increasing toward the future . . .>> * !!!!!!

<< We know this backward pulling group most commonly as gravity. Gravity is essentially the past pulling time backward. >> ????

<< Our sense of time is a reference to the speed of light which is really a measure of the individual states that we evolve forward through. >>
????

The author makes frequent reference to the abstract mathematical/statistical concept of "State Space", which is a meta-physical analogy to physical space. He calls one aspect of his theoretical structure "SOAPS", the Space Of All Possible States. Within that overall space is Possibility Space, Pattern Space, and so forth. He even goes on to assert :
<< Bose-Einstein Condensate already indicates that matter and energy can become space-like.>> [in the physical sense]

* The author was a student of David Bohm, who was a student of Einstein. Bohm developed a theory of Implicate and Explicate order that never caught-on with his fellow physicists in the 1950s. I read Bohm's book on the subject, and although interesting, I never quite grasped what he was talking about. Gevin Giorbran lays it out in small, logical steps, and with clear diagrams, so now I'm beginning to see why New Agers grokked the concept before Agnostics like me. Giorbran uses the easier-to-handle terms, Grouping Order and Symmetry Order.
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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:02 pm

Interesting
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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:51 pm

RESISTANCE IS FUTILE; BUT DESTINY IS FUTURISTIC

I just came across an analogy in the Everything Forever book that might give us a new perspective on the Fate question we were discussing in another thread. The author's metaphor is based on his understanding that the physical universe began in an explosive singularity [maximum Grouping order, maximum Potential energy] and evolves into an expanded, undifferentiated "nothingness" [maximum Symmetry order, maximum Impotent entropy] where everything is perfectly calm and balanced. The original energy still exists, but its potential has been actualized; the original concentrated energy has been zeroed-out.

I picture that scenario like a mountain spring spurting forth and then flowing downhill into a valley lake. Hence, directed by the laws of physics, the destination is inevitable, but the stream is free to follow many different paths on the way down. The spring naturally has high potential energy, due to its elevation, but the lake is full of expended energy, so it is spread-out and calmly at rest.

This explains what he meant by "the future influences the past". Since water can't flow uphill, the lake is a predestined future state of the spring, and the natural force of gravity "pulls" the water toward its final destination. However, on its trip down the mountain, the spring is free to meander as it adapts to contingencies along the way. Hence: local Freedom within global Determinism.
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PostSubject: Re: Non-theistic Deism Explained   Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:10 pm

This is another interim report on the EVERYTHING FOREVER book.

In chapter 20 the author draws a series of conclusions from his cosmological theory of ultimate Nothingness and Timelessness. Referring to what he classifies as a form of "intelligent design", he says, "In fact the most reasonable conclusion is that the final state of time [Omega point] is by nature innately self-aware of its internal self, and thus supremely conscious (absolutely no correlation meant to any supreme consciousness as portrayed by any one religion), and that the very existence of life is directly attributable to an evolution of consciousness invariably built into the process of time reaching zero. . . . As surprised as anyone, I find that I must argue that the supreme state of the universe is both shaping the universe and shaping human history toward a goal." In other words, he envisions some kind of non-theistic deity at work behind the evolution of the natural universe.

He goes on to conclude that "existence reduces to meaning", which is essentially the point of my own theory of Enformationism. Rather than saying reality is an illusion though, he clarifies, "Instead I imagine meaning and physical reality as the same thing. . . . what consciousness is made of is understood to be the same as what physical reality is made of. . . . The physical world . . . it is meaning". Or as I would put it, reality is an idea in the mind of G*D.

Gevin Giorbran's thesis may require temporarily detaching your head from your neck in order to see the world from an unfamiliar godlike perspective. But he patiently leads you through a clear, logical process from mundane observation to a radical conclusion that I have never heard before, but that now seems eminently reasonable to me*. And it even more securely establishes my Deist worldview as a rational, mathematical calculation rather than an emotional, wishful imagination. He says, "I personally don't accept any particular religious interpretation of God. . . . I have come to see God and the infinite Universe as being the same, as something which all religions and philosophies intuitively and spiritually strive to describe and comprehend". Amen.


* I still need to hear from other---preferably skeptical---readers, to reassure me that I have not been beguiled by my own prejudices and the author's sophistry.
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