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 The Manifest and Unmanifest

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Schizophretard



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PostSubject: Re: The Manifest and Unmanifest   Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:53 am

I think I understand what you're saying now. In a way you are an atheist and in a way you are not. It seems to me that atheists spend most of their time claiming what they are not. Like when they say they are an atheist they are saying they are not theists. Would it be fair to say that you are just going in the other direction and instead of saying what you are not you are saying what you are? Do you agree with atheists that there is no god(supreme being) but instead of seeing that in a negative way like atheists you are seeing it in a positive way? What I mean is that atheists seem mad that there is no god and see the universe as being kind of pointless. You are not mad that there is no god and don't see the universe as being pointless. Instead of the universe being this horrible evil place like atheists see it you see the universe as beautiful and divine. Have I figured you out yet?
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PostSubject: Re: The Manifest and Unmanifest   Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:25 am

Schizophretard wrote:
Do you agree with atheists that there is no god(supreme being) but instead of seeing that in a negative way like atheists you are seeing it in a positive way?

Well, I agree that there probably is not a supreme being but that's only because I don't view god as a being. I think god transcends such concepts. I don't think atheists take that next step. They just say that there is no reason to believe in a supreme being and then end it there.

Schizophretard wrote:
What I mean is that atheists seem mad that there is no god and see the universe as being kind of pointless.

I don't know that all atheists are mad that there is no god but yes I think most of them probably do see the universe as pointless in the objective sense of the term.

Schizophretard wrote:
You are not mad that there is no god and don't see the universe as being pointless.

That's right... well somewhat. I'm not mad that there is no god because I believe in god... just not god as a supreme being. I do believe that god is supreme however.

Schizophretard wrote:
Instead of the universe being this horrible evil place like atheists see it you see the universe as beautiful and divine.

I wouldn't say that most atheists see the universe as being a horrible and evil place. I think most of them see it as being neutral to us in the same way that a herd of cattle is neutral to the grass that it tramples as it moves and grazes along a trail.

I do view the universe as beautiful and divine but I realize that my perspective is relative and that there is also evil and ugliness in the universe.

Schizophretard wrote:
Have I figured you out yet?

Not there yet but getting closer. Smile Wink

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Schizophretard

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PostSubject: Re: The Manifest and Unmanifest   Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:01 am

Damn! I feel like I'm back where I started! God is not a being and God is not the universe but it transcends both? I'm confused??? Maybe you believe in the force and are a Jedi Knight? I'm frustrated because I'm trying to figure out how you view God and I can't even figure out how you define it. God is the manifest, the unmanifest, the universe, every universe, nondual, infinite potential, and infinite possibility. It all sounds pretty vague to me. I need something concrete.

I think we should go back to the unmanifest because I need that to be more defined and understood to continue on. So, lets start from the beginning. In the beginning the unmanifest manifested the Heavens and the Earth... What is this unmanifest? What is this potential? It couldn't be matter, energy, or anything that is manifested in this universe? It is something else? Something unknown? Something trapped between the land of the living and the land of the dead? A black hole's shadow? An immaterial spiritual force that transcends everything even our understanding? Not a supreme being but the creator of the gods? What is this ground of being that can not be measured?
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PostSubject: Re: The Manifest and Unmanifest   Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:49 am

Quote :
God is the manifest, the unmanifest, the universe, every universe, nondual, infinite potential, and infinite possibility. It all sounds pretty vague to me. I need something concrete.

I think that's probably why you're having such a hard time understanding my "god hypothesis". In my view god includes "the concrete" but also transcends it.

Schizophretard wrote:
What is this unmanifest?

One can't fully describe the unmanifest because all words and concepts are manifestations. It would be like trying to draw 10 dimensional space on a 2 dimensional piece of paper. The best that I can do is use vague analogies like "pure potentiality".

Schizophretard wrote:
What is this potential?

Here's a dictionary definition. I'm not really sure how else to describe it.
potential- n. the inherent capacity for coming into being. adj. existing in possibility.

Schizophretard wrote:
It couldn't be matter, energy, or anything that is manifested in this universe? It is something else? Something unknown? Something trapped between the land of the living and the land of the dead? A black hole's shadow? An immaterial spiritual force that transcends everything even our understanding? Not a supreme being but the creator of the gods? What is this ground of being that can not be measured?

I think chapters 1 and 25 of the Tao Te Ching say it about as well as anything...

1
The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.

These two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.

25
There was something formless and perfect
before the universe was born.
It is serene. Empty.
Solitary. Unchanging.
Infinite. Eternally present.
It is the mother of the universe.
For lack of a better name,
I call it the Tao.

It flows through all things,
inside and outside, and returns
to the origin of all things.

The Tao is great.
The universe is great.
Earth is great.
Man is great.
These are the four great powers.

Man follows the earth.
Earth follows the universe.
The universe follows the Tao.
The Tao follows only itself.

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Timeless



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PostSubject: Re: The Manifest and Unmanifest   Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:24 pm

First of all one must accept there is a God. This in my opinion is unprovable unless one has experienced death and physically when the brain dies there is no return.
So as we move on to a discussion of what 'The manifest and unmanifest is God' then we are talking belief.
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PostSubject: Re: The Manifest and Unmanifest   Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:54 pm

Timeless wrote:
First of all one must accept there is a God. This in my opinion is unprovable... then we are talking belief.

Absolutely.

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PostSubject: Re: The Manifest and Unmanifest   Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:57 am

Aaron,

In your belief is the universe a concrete manifestation of the abstract unmanifest and God is both? Is the unmanifest kind of like the uncaused cause or unmoved mover of the manifest? If the best that you can do is use vague analogies like "pure potentiality" then how was someone able to explain it to you? As a deist what in your reasoning convinced you that God is the "Tao"?

The unmanifest is what I'm having the most problem with because I can't figure out what attributes it has. If it is the ground of being and contains infinite potential then is omnipotent one of those attributes. So far it sounds like your understanding of God has everything in common with mine but lacks a personality and a mind.

The person who wrote the Tao Te Ching sounds very smart. I like the part that says,"Man follows the earth. Earth follows the universe. The universe follows the Tao. The Tao follows only itself." This sounds like he had a good understanding that there is natural laws and that God doesn't obey them.
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PostSubject: Re: The Manifest and Unmanifest   Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:16 am

Schizophretard wrote:
In your belief is the universe a concrete manifestation of the abstract unmanifest and God is both? Is the unmanifest kind of like the uncaused cause or unmoved mover of the manifest?

Yes and yes.

Schizophretard wrote:
If the best that you can do is use vague analogies like "pure potentiality" then how was someone able to explain it to you? As a deist what in your reasoning convinced you that God is the "Tao"?

I don't believe that god is the Tao but I think the Taoist sages were getting at the same sort of thing that I have in mind. Even they said that "The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao." In other words, don't get caught up in words and names.

But to answer your question, my belief has come about as an end result of a combination a lot of reading, discussion, thought, observation, and meditation. It's a constant work in progress and I fully admit that I am probably wrong.

Schizophretard wrote:
The unmanifest is what I'm having the most problem with because I can't figure out what attributes it has.

The unmanifest is formless which means it has no attributes but it contains within itself unlimited potential attributes.

Schizophretard wrote:
If it is the ground of being and contains infinite potential then is omnipotent one of those attributes.

Hmmmm... I suppose in potential form?

Schizophretard wrote:
So far it sounds like your understanding of God has everything in common with mine but lacks a personality and a mind.

Yes, well the way I view it personality and a mind are human attributes and to the extent that we are a part of god, god possesses those attributes.

Schizophretard wrote:
The person who wrote the Tao Te Ching sounds very smart. I like the part that says,"Man follows the earth. Earth follows the universe. The universe follows the Tao. The Tao follows only itself." This sounds like he had a good understanding that there is natural laws and that God doesn't obey them.

Indeed.

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PostSubject: Re: The Manifest and Unmanifest   Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:50 am

Why does formless mean that it has no attributes? When I think of things that have form and things that don't, I think of material things as having form and immaterial things as being formless. My body has a form but my mind doesn't. So, my mind lacks form but still has attributes. I looked up the definition of manifest. It says,"To take form and become visible." For an example, If I was an invisible ghost then I would be unmanifest and formless. If I made myself visible then I would become manifest and take form. It could be the same with God. God could be a formless(unmanifest) disembodied mind. Also, if God lacks attributes then God is nothing because nothing is a complete lack of attributes.

It is true that having a mind is a human attribute but why does that mean that God couldn't have one too? We have finite potential and you don't have a problem believing that God has infinite potential. So, you still believe that we share something in common with God. We have finite minds. So, why not believe that God has an infinite mind?

Also, if we have minds and God doesn't then doesn't that mean that we are somewhat better than God? If God is mindless than we are more intelligent than God. I have this rule for myself that says that God is greater than any god we could conceive of. That is my line of reasoning to tell me if an idea about God is false or if a god isn't real. So, if I can visualize a better god than someone else's then I believe that my view of God is closer to the truth even though I can't fully conceptualize God. You believe God doesn't have a mind but I can conceive of one that does. So, by this rule I believe that your view is false and mine is closer to the truth. What kind of line of reasoning do you follow that leads you to the conclusion that God lacks a mind?

From how I'm understanding your view of God it seems to me that my version of God is a logical byproduct of infinite potential. If God has this all powerful infinite potential but lacks a mind then it can't choose to restrain it's power. It wouldn't be able to say to itself,"Manifest this but not this." So, everything that it has the potential to manifest it would manifest. Every possible universe and every possible thing would be manifested. Since it has infinite potential to manifest anything then it has the potential to manifest itself to itself and become a self aware supreme being. It would also have the potential to manifest everything else to itself and become all knowing. If it can't do that then it lacks infinite potential. If it can do that but doesn't then it must already have self awareness to begin with to choose to restrain itself.
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PostSubject: Re: The Manifest and Unmanifest   Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:52 am

Schizophretard wrote:
Why does formless mean that it has no attributes? When I think of things that have form and things that don't, I think of material things as having form and immaterial things as being formless.

Yes, that's because you are thinking in purely materialistic terms. Forms not only exist in a material sense but can also exist in a subjective sense. For instance, if I close my eyes and imagine a sun setting across an ocean in front of me, then that's a type of form. It's not a physical form it's an imagined form but it is still a form.

Schizophretard wrote:
God could be a formless(unmanifest) disembodied mind.

God may be a disembodied mind but minds are never completely formless.

Schizophretard wrote:
Also, if God lacks attributes then God is nothing because nothing is a complete lack of attributes.

Ah this is where language becomes tricky. When I say that the unmanifest aspect of god lacks attributes that doesn't mean that the unmanifest is completely nothing. It means that the unmanifest is nothing and everything at the same time. Another way to put it would be that it's a neutral state between being and not being.

Schizophretard wrote:
It is true that having a mind is a human attribute but why does that mean that God couldn't have one too?

God (in it's most base state) could have a mind and a personality for all I know but I don't see any evidence or rational for it. At least not in the way we normally think of a mind in personified form. Plus such a view begs the question of where and how such a disembodied mind came to be and how it was "created"?

Schizophretard wrote:
So, why not believe that God has an infinite mind?

I do believe in a type of "Logos" or universal mind. The way I view it, this "Logos" or universal mind is a manifestation of the unmanifest. Since this logos is a manifestation we have the ability to measure it or at least measure it's side effects which we usually call "the laws of nature". This logos or universal mind lacks personality. It is more like a giant organic computer simulation, constantly in motion and constantly changing. In fact it's quite similar to Gnomon's god hypothesis. I don't personally view this universal mind as "god", but I do view it as one (important) aspect of god.

Schizophretard wrote:
Also, if we have minds and God doesn't then doesn't that mean that we are somewhat better than God?

No, because we are a part of god. God does have a (personified) mind through us.

Schizophretard wrote:
You believe God doesn't have a mind.

I never said that, I just don't connect the unmanifest ground of being with "the mind of god".

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PostSubject: Re: The Manifest and Unmanifest   Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:11 am

I'm not thinking in purely materialistic terms. I agree that an imagined sun has a form even though it isn't material but an imagined sun is an immaterial copy of something material. I'm thinking of immaterial things that have no form. Does emotions, self awareness, consciousness, and everything else within our minds that are not found in the material world have a form? What is the length, width, height of my mind? What color is my mind? Can you describe the form of my mind? Can you describe the attributes of my mind? Which would be easier for you to describe my mind's form or my mind's attributes?

In a way looking at the real sun and an imagined sun are the same, both only exist in our minds. I'm not saying that there is no sun. I'm just saying that we have never really seen it. When we look at the sun our brains create a simulation of the sun in our minds. There is a difference between these two suns in our mind and the real sun though. The two suns in our minds are manifest and the real sun is not. Like I said before the definition of manifest is to take form and become VISIBLE. So, to become manifest it needs more than just form. It also needs to become visible. All we see when we look at the sun is a copy of it and therefore the sun is invisible. So, the sun is unmanifest and when we look at it, it becomes manifest in our minds. I'm trying to make a point similar to the idea that if a tree falls in a forest and there is nobody around to hear it then there is no sound. If a tree falls in a forest and there is nobody around to see it then is it manifest? What I'm saying is that for something to become manifest there must be an observer so that the object being observed can take form and become visible.

Rather or not something is unmanifest or manifest is relative to who is observing it. The sun is unmanifest when no one is looking at it. It has the potential to become manifest because there are people who can observe it. So, the only way the unmanifest can have infinite potential to make anything become manifest is if there is an observer that observes all the unmanifest.

I agree with you that ,"God may be a disembodied mind but minds are never completely formless." When I said,"God could be a formless(unmanifest) disembodied mind." I should of said that the unmanifest parts of God and the manifest parts of God could be both within a disembodied mind. He could have formless thoughts and thoughts with form just like we do. All his thoughts that have a form are manifest to him but only the ones we observe are manifest to us.

The unmanifest is a neutral state between being and not being? Interesting and confusing. I imagine a wall between nonexistence and existence. Please explain more.

I see evidence that God has a personality and a mind. We both agree that God is omnipotent in the sense of having infinite potential. We both agree that at least some of this potential has been used. I see evidence of personality and a mind by how this potential has been used. If there was no mind behind this potential then God would use all of his infinite potential because there would be nothing restraining this potential. If there was something restraining it then it wouldn't have infinite potential because there would be some things God couldn't do. I see evidence that this potential has been restrained but not because God can't do all that is possible but because he chooses when and how to use his power. If God used his infinite potential without restraint then I think the world would be completely different. There would be no natural laws, everything would just be miracles, things would pop in and out of existence, the universe would be nothing but chaos and unintelligible,there would be no life, and it would appear that God is a complete moron. The universe is the opposite. There are natural laws and God doesn't even break them even though only he can, things don't pop in and out of existence, the universe is orderly and intelligible, there is life, and all this and more proves to me that God is the genius of geniuses. If you had infinite potential then do you think you could do a better job?

I don't see how such a view begs the question of where and how such a disembodied mind came to be and how it was created. Where and how did the unmanifest come to be and how was it created? The where is everywhere and nowhere. God exists in and out of space. There is no how because it was never created. The mind of God is eternal and I see this mind as the ground of being just like you do with the unmanifest. The mind of God is the only thing that exists and it always has.

If the universal mind is a manifestation of the unmanifest then why didn't it manifest a personality or self awareness when the unmanifest has infinite potential? Why did this giant organic computer simulation simulate self awareness in us but not in itself? Please give me more details about the "Logos".

I understand that we are a part of God and in a way he has a personified mind through us but we are not fully God. If we were then that would be infinitely more strange than the Trinity. I'll rephrase my question. If parts of God have minds(us) and the totality of God doesn't then doesn't that mean that some of his parts are somewhat better than the whole?

Like I said in the last post,"my version of God is a logical byproduct of infinite potential." I think infinite potential(omnipotence) has to have omniscience. It's like with space, time, and matter. If you have one you have the others. If there is infinite potential then the potential for omniscience would exist. God would be omniscient because he would have the potential to become so. In other words, the unmanifest would be manifesting everything it possibly could because there would be nothing restraining it and it could possibly manifest omniscience so it would.

It seems to me that we both agree to an extent that God is omnipotent and omnipresent but I don't understand how God wouldn't be omniscient. I think I would probably become an atheist if I believed God lacked omniscience because many of the things that prove to me that there is a god are things that point to an intelligence that transcends the universe.

I'm still very interested in this topic even though I vaguely understand you but please explain more.
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PostSubject: Re: The Manifest and Unmanifest   Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:25 am

Schizophretard wrote:
I'm not thinking in purely materialistic terms. I agree that an imagined sun has a form even though it isn't material but an imagined sun is an immaterial copy of something material. I'm thinking of immaterial things that have no form. Does emotions, self awareness, consciousness, and everything else within our minds that are not found in the material world have a form?

Sure they have a physical correlate that can be measured in your brain and body. Your emotions, self awareness, and perhaps even consciousness itself could not exist without duality or the polar relationship of object and subject.

Schizophretard wrote:
What is the length, width, height of my mind? What color is my mind?

The subjective aspect of the brain that we call "the mind" is not a physical object, (although it does have a physical correlate) therefore it can't be measured in purely physical terms. Instead it needs to be measured in subjective terms. This is the job of the psychologist.

Schizophretard wrote:
Can you describe the form of my mind? Can you describe the attributes of my mind? Which would be easier for you to describe my mind's form or my mind's attributes?

Your mind has many attributes (logic, emotions, belief, etc...) and it takes many forms (states and stages of consciousness). The attributes and forms can't be measured directly but their physical correlates can be measure through the use of things like EEG, MRI, fMRI and CAT scans.

Schizophretard wrote:
Like I said before the definition of manifest is to take form and become VISIBLE. So, to become manifest it needs more than just form. It also needs to become visible.

I think you need to be careful about taking that dictionary definition too literally. There are a number of things that are physical manifestations that aren't visible such as sounds, smells, sensations, and tastes as well as non-physical manifestions such as thoughts and emotions.

Schizophretard wrote:
All we see when we look at the sun is a copy of it and therefore the sun is invisible. So, the sun is unmanifest and when we look at it, it becomes manifest in our minds

The sun is visible to us and it is manifest in an objective sense from what I can tell (provided this isn't all just a dream). It's just that our ability to view all aspects of the sun are limited by our senses and our brains ability to process and filter information. But yes, it's true that we do "co-create" the world that we experience to a certain extent.

Schizophretard wrote:
Rather or not something is unmanifest or manifest is relative to who is observing it. The sun is unmanifest when no one is looking at it. It has the potential to become manifest because there are people who can observe it. So, the only way the unmanifest can have infinite potential to make anything become manifest is if there is an observer that observes all the unmanifest.

There are certain quantum theorists that would probably agree with you on some level but I'm not sure you are talking about "the Copenhagen Interpretation" in relation to wavefunction collapse. It seems that your argument is based on a flawed connection between the concept of "manifestation" and visibility based on a definition that you found in a dictionary. Here's another definition that I found in a dictionary that contradicts the literal interpretation of the definition that you found...

Quote :
Manifest- clearly apparent or obvious to the mind or senses.

This definition refers to things that are apparent to either the mind (ie., imagination) or the sense (ie., touch, taste, smell, hear, and see). This is why it's important not to take dictionary definitions too literally. Language is a dynamic and ever changed communication devise. Words often have very nebulous meanings. Context needs to be accounted for. When I scientist talks about a manifestation it might not mean the same thing as when a philosopher or a theologian talks about a manifestation.

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PostSubject: Re: The Manifest and Unmanifest   Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:18 am

I think the definition you presented still works with what I'm saying. For something to be clearly apparent or obvious to the mind or senses there must be a mind(observer) to sense(observe) the something. So, if there were no minds then there would be nothing that is manifested.

I'm not saying the same thing as the Copenhagen Interpretation or anything like that. The sun exists rather or not anybody ever looks at it but for it to become manifested there must be a mind to observe it.

I looked it up in a thesaurus and this is what I found:

adjective

Readily seen, perceived, or understood: apparent, clear, clear-cut, crystal clear, distinct, evident, noticeable, observable, obvious, patent, plain, pronounced, visible.

verb

To make manifest or apparent: demonstrate, display, evidence, evince, exhibit, proclaim, reveal, show.

All the adjectives show that for something to be manifested there must be an observer and all the verbs show that to make something manifested there must be an observer.

Right now I'm looking up things about manifest and unmanifest online. So far the way I understand it is that things that are manifest are revealed and things that are unmanifest are unrevealed. I found this interesting Hindu definition of unmanifest.

Unmanifest: Hindu - Hinduism Dictionary on Unmanifest

unmanifest: Not evident or perceivable.

Philosophically, akin to transcendent. God Siva is unmanifest in His formless perfection, Parasiva.

See: formless.
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