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 "Inalienable" Human Rights

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Gettin' In Tune



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Registration date : 2007-09-29

PostSubject: Re: "Inalienable" Human Rights   Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:58 am

Schizophretard wrote:

I completely agree with that because even if there is no god there would still be nature and nature is the origin of natural rights. My argument is that if there is a god then natural rights come from God because nature comes from God. In other words, If God created nature and natural rights are a part of nature then God created natural rights.
I agree with you. If god does not exist, then we are still bounded by nature and reason. These bounds are the formation of natural law. If god did create nature, then it would logically follow that god created natural law.

Quote :
You're the one that said you used to recognize a deistic god and I'm curious about why you went from a deist to an atheist. So, If you care to share your story I think it would make the conversation go more smoothly if you define a deist god based on how you once believed it. Please, explain why you believed in it and why you no longer do.
Looking back, I never fully recognized a deistic god. I was always skeptical. Why? I could not properly define god based on evidence and observation. Every argument that I made or came across broke down at some point.

The problems I found with a deistic god:
1. Infinite regress, unless you are referring to an Unmoved Mover.
2. Lack of a coherent definition based off of evidence and observation.

Why I am an atheist?
1. Since something has always existed, then this does not require an exogenous or supernatural entity. The universe, to our best understanding has always existed. Why create a deistic god for it's explanation. One must first prove that the universe never existed, then prove a deistic god.
2. Without a coherent definition I arrived at theological noncognitivism. The definition of god has lost all meaning to me.
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Gettin' In Tune



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PostSubject: Re: "Inalienable" Human Rights   Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:02 am

The formation of natural rights is when man applies his facilities to a restrictive nature and creates personal property. The right to personal property is fundamental in natural law.
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Schizophretard

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PostSubject: Re: "Inalienable" Human Rights   Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:39 am

Gettin' In Tune wrote:
The formation of natural rights is when man applies his facilities to a restrictive nature and creates personal property. The right to personal property is fundamental in natural law.

I agree. I'm not trying to debate you on it. We are both in agreement about natural rights. We are both in agreement that they come directly from nature. The only point we disagree on is that I believe nature comes from God. We just have different starting points. You start at nature and I go further back.

Could you tell me your story of becoming a deist then becoming an atheist? I'm truly interested. I've heard only one other former deist's story and I want to hear more stories to figure out what happens. I already know why I left Christianity and I'm curious what may happen if I leave Deism.
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Helium



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PostSubject: Re: "Inalienable" Human Rights   Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:15 am

Yeah, I'm just reading about the Rwandan genocide, 800,000 people slaughtered in 100 days.

If nature grants rights, as you say, it sure doesn't defend 'em
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Gnomon
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PostSubject: Re: "Inalienable" Human Rights   Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:41 pm

Schizophretard wrote:

I mostly agree with your essay but disagree that equality under the law is the only natural right. I don't even consider equality under the law a natural right because we have natural rights without laws.

The "law" I was referring to is Natural Law. Our natural rights and responsibilities derive from Nature. Our artificial rights and responsibilities derive from Culture.

Natural law does not make any concessions to hierarchical differences---KIngs and peasants thrown out a window will fall at the same rate. Human laws sometimes try to "level the playing field" by bull-dozing the natural hills and valleys or by building artificial barriers. Social Equality is an ideal condition to strive for, not a natural condition to take for granted.
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Gettin' In Tune



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PostSubject: Re: "Inalienable" Human Rights   Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:36 pm

Helium wrote:
Yeah, I'm just reading about the Rwandan genocide, 800,000 people slaughtered in 100 days.

If nature grants rights, as you say, it sure doesn't defend 'em

I would suggest that you read The Law by Bastiat. You can google it, or find an audio version on you tube:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ikgwLu_qVjI&feature=related

"Each of us has a natural right--from God--to defend his person, his liberty, and his property. These are the three basic requirements of life, and the preservation of any one of them is completely dependent upon the preservation of the other two. For what are our faculties but the extension of our individuality? And what is property but an extension of our faculties?

If every person has the right to defend -- even by force -- his person, his liberty, and his property, then it follows that a group of men have the right to organize and support a common force to protect these rights constantly."--Bastiat

The Rwandan genocide happened since it was a violation of natural rights and that people did not use collective force to defend their persons, property, and liberty.

It is up to man to enforce natural rights, not nature.
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Helium



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PostSubject: Re: "Inalienable" Human Rights   Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:08 pm

I'll check it out!
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