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 Divine Mind = Panendeistic Deity?

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Schizophretard

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PostSubject: Divine Mind = Panendeistic Deity?   Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:48 am

I'm new to deism and have alot to learn. I found out about Panendeism about two weeks ago and find it interesting. It sounds almost like what I believed before I heard of it.

I believe that God doesn't just have the Divine Mind but that is all he is. I believe this because the thought of him having a body and sitting on a throne in Heaven sounds unreasonable to me. I also think of God as being a spirit and consider spirits minds because they are not physical.

I also believe that it would be pointless for God to create the Universe outside himself because his all knowingness would mean that the Universe would be an identical copy to the one in his mind. I believe God(The Divine Mind) created the Universe(The Divine Thoughts) within himself by simply thinking about it.

One of the things I like about my view of God is that it lacks the supernatural. Instead of saying that God is supernatural and creates by supernatural means I say that God is natural and creates through natural means. Many atheist lack a belief in God because they lack a belief in the supernatural. They believe all things require a natural explanation. Natural explanations don't have to just be materialistic explanations because minds are also natural. So, an idealistic explanation is just as natural as a materialistic explanation. God is a mind and therefore he's natural. God creates with thought and therefore his power is natural.

Since I believe we are in the mind of God am I a Panendeist? Do you see anything wrong with my reasoning? Do you have similar beliefs and/or have you heard of an explanation of God like this before? What's your thoughts on the subject?

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Schizophretard
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Aaron
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PostSubject: Re: Divine Mind = Panendeistic Deity?   Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:38 am

Hello Schizophretard and welcome. (Interesting name?) Smile

Schizophretard wrote:
Since I believe we are in the mind of God am I a Panendeist?

Panendeism is the rational based belief that god, "the one", the divine, etc. includes the material universe in it's being but that it's being also extends beyond the universe. So if that definition makes sense to you then perhaps you could label yourself as a panendeist.

Schizophretard wrote:
Do you see anything wrong with my reasoning?

I don't personally agree (or disagree) with all of your conclusions but your reasoning seems sound from what I can see.

Schizophretard wrote:
Do you have similar beliefs and/or have you heard of an explanation of God like this before? What's your thoughts on the subject?

Yes I do have similar beliefs although I'd consider myself a "nondualist" rather than an idealist. In other words I don't see the world as fundamentally ideal or material. I think that the ideal and the material are distinct aspects of the same thing or the same process. They are both part of the divine oneness of existence IMO.

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Schizophretard

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PostSubject: Re: Divine Mind = Panendeistic Deity?   Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:37 am

I looked up nondualist on Wikipedia and I vaguely comprehend it. One sentence said,"To the Nondualist, reality is ultimately neither physical nor mental." I don't understand this. If reality neither physically and/or mentally exists then how does it exist at all? I comprehend materialism, idealism, and dualism but nondualism I don't. Please explain.

This is the first time I heard of nondualism. Since I only understand materialism, idealism, and dualism, I formed my model of the Universe and God based on these.

Out of all these philosophies materialism is the only one I completely disagree with because if matter was the only thing that exists then my mind wouldn't. In a way I'm both a dualist and idealist. I believe that both matter and thought exists. So, in a way I'm a dualist. I just think that matter is made of thoughts but not our thoughts. So, in a way I'm also an idealist.

I think of it like this. If I had the intelligence to imagine a self aware character and that character was looking at an imagined Sun, then the Sun would be material to the character and it's self awareness would be mental to the character but to me both would be mental because I'm the character's god. When I look at the Sun I believe both are mental to God even though the Sun is physical to me.

I'm really interested in how you see the world and God. Please explain what you mean by nondualist. What do you agree with me, what do you disagree with me, and what is your reasoning behind it? Since you believe that the Universe has a nondualist nature do you also believe the parts of God that are not this Universe are nondualist? How do you believe God created the Universe? How do you see time in relation to the creation and time from the perspective of God? What I mean is do you believe God existed for eons before the creation, do you believe the Universe existed forever as a part of God and there was no creation, do you believe God is in a state of timelessness, created time, and sees all of time in a state of timelessness, or do you believe something different? Out of all the "denominations" of Panendeism which one do I seem closest to and which one are you closest to?

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Schizophretard
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PostSubject: Re: Divine Mind = Panendeistic Deity?   Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:48 am

Schizophretard wrote:
I looked up nondualist on Wikipedia and I vaguely comprehend it. One sentence said,"To the Nondualist, reality is ultimately neither physical nor mental." I don't understand this. If reality neither physically and/or mentally exists then how does it exist at all? I comprehend materialism, idealism, and dualism but nondualism I don't. Please explain.

It's true that from a nondualist point of view reality is ultimately neither physical nor mental, however they both exist as distinct aspects of the same thing. Some call this thing "spirit" others call it "the tao" and there are many other names for it as well. IMO it doesn't really matter what name you call it as long as you get the idea.

With monisms like idealism and materialism, reality is composed of and can be reduced to just one substance. With dualism ultimate reality is composed of two fundamental and independent substances. In most cases it's matter and mind. Nondualism is neither dualistic nor monistic.

Think of the yin/yang symbol. Yin Yang The two distinct aspects of the symbol form a dynamic whole. These aspects are not completely separate nor are they completely the same. That's the best way that I can describe it rationally.

Schizophretard wrote:
I'm really interested in how you see the world and God...


Wow, I don't know if I can answer all of your questions in just one post but I'll see what I can do. Wink

Schizophretard wrote:
What do you agree with me, what do you disagree with me, and what is your reasoning behind it?

This is just my opinion but I wouldn't define god as a "mind". IMO minds are limited and qualifiable. In my opinion the unmanifest aspect of god is unqualifiable. It's infinite possibility and doesn't exist in space/time.

Schizophretard wrote:
Since you believe that the Universe has a nondualist nature do you also believe the parts of God that are not this Universe are nondualist?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Are you talking about other universes within an omniverse or something more abstract?

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PostSubject: Re: Divine Mind = Panendeistic Deity?   Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:49 am

Schizophretard wrote:
How do you believe God created the Universe?

I don't think there's really any way of knowing that answer but my guess would be that the manifest universe is an emination of the unmanifest.

Schizophretard wrote:
How do you see time in relation to the creation and time from the perspective of God?

I don't think that time exists outside of this universe.

Schizophretard wrote:
What I mean is do you believe God existed for eons before the creation, do you believe the Universe existed forever as a part of God and there was no creation, do you believe God is in a state of timelessness, created time, and sees all of time in a state of timelessness, or do you believe something different?

IMO unmanifest spirit is timeless. Other than that I don't really have a good guess.

Schizophretard wrote:
Out of all the "denominations" of Panendeism which one do I seem closest to and which one are you closest to?

Well there aren't really any established "denominations" of Panendeism but there are some basic categories. For instance there are many panendeists and panentheists that tend to have a more idealistic approach such as the Advaita Vedanta movement within the Hindu tradition. Gnostism is very idealistic and so is the Tibetan Buddhist Dzogchen school. Idealist Panendeism can also be seen in the philosophy of Fichte and Hegel amoung many others.

If forced to describe my "denomination" of Panendeism I'd say Agnostic Integral Dynamic Positive Panendeist... but that doesn't really roll off the tongue now does it? Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Divine Mind = Panendeistic Deity?   Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:41 pm

When I said,"Since you believe that the Universe has a nondualist nature do you also believe the parts of God that are not this Universe are nondualist?" I meant do you see just the Universe or all of God as nondualistic? Is God composed of mind/matter?
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PostSubject: Re: Divine Mind = Panendeistic Deity?   Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:18 pm

Sure, IMO god is composed of the manifest, which mind/matter is a part of, and the unmanifest which is unqualifiable. The relationship between the manifest and unmanifest is nondual in this model.

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PostSubject: Re: Divine Mind = Panendeistic Deity?   Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:58 am

I find your model interesting. I don't have enough info to totally comprehend it but I think I got the basics of what you mean by nondual. I think matter/mind being nondual can still fit in my idealistic model if I'm understanding it correctly. Is this your own personal understanding of God or did you learn this model from others? Is there anywhere that I can read this model in detail with the reasons for this model? How is the manifest/unmanifest nondual?

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PostSubject: Re: Divine Mind = Panendeistic Deity?   Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:18 am

I'll have to get back to you on this one a little later as I don't really have the time to answer it properly right now.

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PostSubject: Re: Divine Mind = Panendeistic Deity?   Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:32 am

Schizophretard wrote:
Is this your own personal understanding of God or did you learn this model from others?

A little bit of both. I started off reading books by cosmologists like Steven Hawking and Paul Davies and developed my own models based on my understanding of the cosmos and then fine tuned that model through conversations and subsequent reading (mostly philosophical) both online and in books. It's still a work in progress. (And probably always will be.)

Schizophretard wrote:
Is there anywhere that I can read this model in detail with the reasons for this model?

Here on this forum and to a certain extent on the main website. I'm also influenced by Taoism, Integral Philosophy, Pantheism, aspects of Buddhism, and of course Deism.

Schizophretard wrote:
How is the manifest/unmanifest nondual?

They are distinct aspects of the same thing. They are neither the same nor different and they co-arise along with one another.

It's a very abstract idea and not one that's easy to comprehend let alone explain in a rational manner.

Think about a tree. It's basically made up of soil, water, and air. It can be said that soil, water and air are the ground of being for that tree, or in other words, they are the tree in unmanifest form. Once the tree becomes manifest, the soil, water, and air still existed but in unmanifest form ready to become manifested once again as soon as the tree becomes unmanifested or dies.

In this way the tree, soil, water, and air are nondualistic. They are the same but different. When one becomes manifest the other becomes unmanifest and vise-versa.

Now this is a simple analogy but in theory the same can hold true for manifest existence and unmanifest existence. They are like yin and yang. One acts as the ground for the other. The two of them together is what I call god.

I hope that makes some sense.

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PostSubject: Re: Divine Mind = Panendeistic Deity?   Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:11 am

I've heard of Paul Davies before. I saw him in Privileged Planet. Have you seen it? How good are his books?

I kinda get what your saying but for the most part I'm confused. I have a better understanding of the things you've said concerning the nature of the universe than God separate from it. I'm pretty sure I understand what you mean by mind/body having a nondual nature. I'll explain to make sure though. You don't believe mind to be a property of matter, you don't believe matter to be a property of mind, but you believe both matter and mind are properties of Tao. I think by Tao you mean the spirit of God in everything. How much of this is correct?

I'm also confused by what you mean by manifest and unmanifest. Please define but use your own words instead of a dictionary.

Do you believe God to be a conscious being? Did he create the universe or is it an eternal part of God?

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PostSubject: Re: Divine Mind = Panendeistic Deity?   Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:43 am

Schizophretard wrote:
I've heard of Paul Davies before. I saw him in Privileged Planet. Have you seen it? How good are his books?

Yes, I enjoyed them. Smile

Schizophretard wrote:
You don't believe mind to be a property of matter, you don't believe matter to be a property of mind, but you believe both matter and mind are properties of Tao. I think by Tao you mean the spirit of God in everything. How much of this is correct?

Yeah pretty much.

Schizophretard wrote:
I'm also confused by what you mean by manifest and unmanifest. Please define but use your own words instead of a dictionary.

The manifest is when something comes into existence. The unmanifest is the possiblity of that something coming into existence.

Hydrogen and oxygen are water in unmanifest form (as well as many other things.) H2O is water in manifest form.

Schizophretard wrote:
Do you believe God to be a conscious being?

I don't know that we can attribute human qualities such as consciousness to god, but if we could and god did posses consciousness, I doubt that it would be anything that we would recognize as consciousness.

Schizophretard wrote:
Did he create the universe or is it an eternal part of God?

Perhaps a little of both?

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